Posts by Doubting Bro

24

Holy spirit making its first mistake

by stillin9 in

well, it seems like that the holy spirit is making its first mistake!

they want to appoint me as a ministrial servant!

i wonder if that means that apostasy while being apointed as a ms is okay?!

Doubting Bro

TOH

The HS is therefore seen as operating or appointing in the sense that it is the force behind the spelling out of the requirements, the force behind the changes in living which the candidate has carried out, and the force working or influencing the elders during prayer.

You are presenting the WTS take on this correctly. However, it always seemed to me the explaination never really made sense because of the highlighted portion. Either the HS is "speaking" to the elders in the sense that it is moving them to appoint or not appoint or its not. Sure, saying that if the person meets the qualifications in Tim & Titus (plus the extra qualifications from the WTS including 10 hrs in service, commenting at meetings, etc) is in a way being appointed by HS is fine with me. It's the whole, "let's pray over it to get Jehovah's direction" that seems to me that at least implies to the rank & file that HS had the final say.

There's also the whole "the branch also prays over the appointments" issue which adds even more validity that the WTS claims divine appointment for even elders & MS. Clearly, its to reinforce their local authority (disagreeing with the elders can be seen as disagreeing with Jehovah). But, they back off that claim when it's evident that they've made a mistake.

BTW, many clergy and layclergy in other Christian denominations will often say they were "called" into their ministry, meaning the HS moved them to service. So, I'm not arguing that the WTS is alone in claiming divine direction in selecting religious leaders.

The best argument the WTS can come up with on this issue is to point out that Judas was selected by Jesus to be an apostle and look how that turned out. Of course, it is said that Judas started out good and that Jesus didn't make a mistake. But, I've known several situations where men were appointed elders and at the same time doing things that would get them df'ed (such as having sex with a pioneer while someone was on a "long" RV to someone not his wife, he was a MS at the time and was soon appointed as an elder).

6

The conscious class

by tjlibre in

jw
friends

the conscious class.... .

i have just come across this term on the jwrecovery.org website.

it appears to refer to those who are awakening and learning that the wt is just another religion that uses mind control to hold us captive, but for numerous reasons cant leave the org.

Doubting Bro

It's hard to tell because everyone is afraid to honestly express themselves. I do see that the level of devotion has dropped from when I was a kid. I agree with tjlibre that many sense something isnt' quite right but can't put their finger on it. I recall speaking with a long time elder who I grew up with and respected saying that the "friends were just tired". He had become a VERY liberal elder and at that point (being the self righteous prick that I was) I thought he was out of bounds many times. Now, I see he was probably part of this "conscious" class and didn't really believe it. But, like many of us, he had his entire family on both sides in and probably doesn't believe it's worth it to walk away. I have a suspicion that he's taking the approach that he can help folks by being an elder by protecting them to some degree. I tried that at first but I finally realized that I didn't matter and couldn't reform the org.

As tjlibre said, the first step is the hardest and the one that many people refuse to take. It's amazing that a lifetime of beliefs can be swept away in a few hours, yet that's really what happens. Jesus said that those who build faith on falsehood is like building a house on sand. Easily knocked down.

12

African Methodist Episcopal Zion Church

by snowbird in

was first organized in new york during the late 18th century.. prominent members included sojourner truth, harriet tubman, and frederick douglass.. many black churches followed suit and added zion to their names.. i know of a greater zion tabernacle, little zion missionary baptist church, and big zion ame church.. charles russell decided to drop zion from his magazine title because many people were associating his publication with a "colored" church.

his explanation as follows is from the december 15, 1908 wt.. .

with the new year we expect to drop the word "zion's" in the title of our journal, because many of the friends inform us that the word is objectionable, having been so much used by mr. dowie and his followers.

Doubting Bro

Very interesting. Actually kind of shocking considering the percentage of African American JWs in the US.

Here's a link on Dowie because I had no idea who he was.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/170419/John-Alexander-Dowie

21

Annual Pioneer "

by Open mind in

Doubting Bro

Absolutely! In my approximately 10 years as an elder, I conducted or helped conduct the Annual Pioneer meeting probably 7 out of 10 times. The outline was very similar in format (obviously different subject matter) to what the CO reviews with the elders & ms during his visit.

One congregation we had only a couple of pioneers and we (the 2 elders conducting) would take them out after the meeting. We usually scheduled the meeting so that it was on a Sat evening and then go straight to dinner. Sometimes, other elders would come with us, sometimes the wives (if there were sister pioneers). Other times, it was just lunch. Sometimes the rest of the BOE would kick in some funds but if not we would do it on our own.

I know of one congregation that got in trouble because one of the elders hosted a big dinner in honor of his congregation's pioneers. He was counseled by the CO for drawing too much attention to these individuals. He probably did go overboard but I think it was sincere.

I always argued that since the meeting was supposed to encourage the pioneers to continue on, that there was nothing wrong with buying them a meal and giving them a little attention. I thought it was common (at least in the US) so I'm surprised more folks didn't experience it.

It seems to me that the amount of socialization among JWs is much less than when I was a kid. I notice very few congregation picinics and the like.

22

Slightly weird mess-up by the Society...service meeting part

by sir82 in

jw
friends

if there's one thing the society loves, it is punctuality and regularity.. every year for at least the past 30 years, without fail, you could set your atomic clock by it, what is the primary topic of the 1st service meeting in january?.

you find out where and when your district convention will be that year.. so, looking at the december km, sure enough, there is an insert covering the usual topics (don't save seats, arrive on time, spit out your gum, don't pee in the hotel pool, etc.)..

but wait a minute!

Doubting Bro

Blondie - Yeah, I remember that one and that has to be one of the biggest screwups of all time. I was secretary at the time and if I recall correctly, we actually sent them back. I remember thinking at the time that was a big waste of postage that we could just throw them away. But, it also got me to thinking more seriously about the blood policy since I knew what allogenic meant.

It was one of the thing in which the motar around the bricks began to loosen!

Edited - I could very well be wrong about the returning of the cards and I'm sure the link is more correct on that detail than I am.

64

Extra Extra read all about it. Study Article PDF to be posted on www.jw.org

by jah1914 in

jw
friends

just got this excerpt from a friend who is an elder all excited about how jah's people are using technology.

guess we won't have to provide links anymore.. excerpt:.

we are pleased to inform you that the study articles in the english edition of the watch-tower will be made available as pdf files in the public area of the jw.org web site.

Doubting Bro

I'm surprised it took them this long! You wait, the KM will be there in some fashion in the not too near future. It makes sense and should save them a ton of cash. It's volunatry for the moment but I give them 6 months to a year before it becomes "strongly suggested" that the study WTs be downloaded by individual pubs. If I were them, I would have done this years ago.

Just another item in the expense reducing trend. Not critizing, just pointing out that the need to reduce costs is a top priority at the WTS, Inc.

147

Did You Personally Know Any JWs That Were Sexually Molested By Other JWs?

by minimus in

i knew of a handful (which is too many) that were molested by a jehovah's witness.

it was not typical in my experience.

what about you???.

Doubting Bro

Never in any congregation that I was a part of but I do have 2 JW friends that were molested by elders when they were kids.

61

For Active JW Men: Ideas on Awakening Your JW Spouse (Long post)

by Open mind in

jw
friends

disclaimer: your mileage may vary.

if you are a married, "active, in good standing" (tm), jw male who has recently discovered that the .

watchtower is not what it claims to be, this thread is for you.

Doubting Bro

But I noticed the distant look in her eyes, like saying “I agree with you…but where else can we go?”.

Yup and that's always been the tough one to overcome. Also, the fact that many born-in JWs (like me and my wife) look at being JW not so much as a religion but as part of our social heritage. Much of the family on both sides are JW, many "friends", etc. There's the tradition of not celebrating holidays, birthdays and the various workarounds so that you do have celebrations with your family. Of course, there's the shunning which is really the glue that holds the whole thing together. If they dropped shunning, I would guess a good sized number would leave.

I've been in limbo for several years now not knowing which way to go. Part of me wants to take OTWOs route and let the chips fall, part wants to unring the bell, and part has sort of given up on everything.

33

Assembly Parts NEVER made sense to me....!!!!

by babygirl30 in

jw
friends

this is and always has been one of my biggest gripes: assembly parts/experiences.

not 1....ever......e-v-e-r was even remotely relatable to me.

now i have traveled all over the place (and to other countries) and i have sat amongst rich and poor jws, suburbanites and urbanites, siddity folks and straight 'hood'.....and not 1 assembly experience made me sit up in my seat and say "wow - that's just like me!".

Doubting Bro

Of course, many of these assembly parts are embellished to make them more "encouraging". I was stunned the first time I had the "privilege" of conducting one of these parts (sort of a entry level part for folks trying to climb up the ladder to DC parts). First, the POs (COBOE now) from the other congregations I called blew me off when I asked if they knew anyone with the type of experience I was looking for. Then, when I told the CO, his response was to find someone who sort of fit the experience and then "work with them" to make it fit. I responded that I thought it was a little dishonest and said that he was confident that somewhere in the circuit, the actual experience had taken place and that many were shy. So, he said I could think of it as a demonstration of what could happen as opposed to an actual experience. Of course, they are always presented as actual experiences.

babygirl30 - seriously your experience would actually be more "encouraging" (sorry, it creeps me out typing that) to the average rank & file than some of these overly hyped ones. You are dead on about the sports scholarships! I've heard those stories too and agree that is complete BS.

Usually these "scholarship" offers are either 1) kids like babygirl30 who had every intention of going to school but got talked out of it at the last minute or 2) aren't real offers but merely suggestions from guidance consoler that you may qualify if you apply. Usually it's #2.

61

For Active JW Men: Ideas on Awakening Your JW Spouse (Long post)

by Open mind in

jw
friends

disclaimer: your mileage may vary.

if you are a married, "active, in good standing" (tm), jw male who has recently discovered that the .

watchtower is not what it claims to be, this thread is for you.

Doubting Bro

OM - thanks so much for sharing. You've inspired me to be a little more open with my wife. I've just avoided JW discussions for quite a while now because I was afraid of what may happen.

Terrific advice. I have a feeling that folks liked you being an elder.